▪ Ultra-Orthodox spitting attacks on Old City clergymen becoming daily
▪ Teaching kids to hate Talmud
▪ Kaliningrad Jews battle circus over restoring synagogue
▪ Divorcing the rabbinate
▪ The controversial acronym “akum”
▪ Jews Need Count, Not Wishful Thinking
▪ OU Press Publishes Koren Mesorat HaRav Siddur
▪ SALT Friday
▪ Interview with R. Aharon Lichtenstein on his Jubilee Of Leadership
▪ Rabbinical court will be obligated to set Get date
▪ Oprah visits Brooklyn mikveh
▪ The Making of Post-Haredism
▪ City Removes Barricades That Blocked Struggling Wall Street Cafe
▪ Going Into The Supreme Court, United For Jerusalem
▪ R. Meir Soloveichik speaks with R. Jonathan Sacks
▪ SALT Thursday
▪ Jerusalem women challenge ultra-Orthodox ban on ‘immodest’ posters
▪ Government closes down Yitzhar yeshiva
▪ Polish president, rabbis condemn Dutch anti-‘shechita’ law
▪ Halacha and Shariah Have Plenty in Common
▪ Population boom? Why 7 billion isn’t enough
▪ Bill passed on sanctions for ‘recalcitrant’ husbands
▪ Kosher Cafe Owner Sacks 21 Employees As Consequence Of Occupy Wall Street Demonstration
▪ Australian lawmakers agree to maintain shechita
▪ SALT Wednesday
▪ In praise of liberal arts
▪ Beit Shemesh shows Israel at a crossroads
▪ Poland has largest gathering of rabbis since WWII
▪ Manicures and Torah Studies Meet
▪ Top Cardinal Claims Jews Want Sainthood for Nazi-Era Pope
▪ The Great Orthodox Comeback
▪ Tzohar’s flagship wedding project in danger of shutting down
▪ Israel and the Apartheid Slander
▪ This Time, IDF Soldiers Permitted To Leave Kol Isha Event
▪ SALT Tuesday
▪ Judge quashes indictment of pugilistic priest (turn the other cheek fist?)
▪ Crackdown on Child Sex Abuse Unravels
▪ Day School Tuition Should Be Income-Based
▪ Oreos: The Forbidden Fruit
▪ White House Responds to Petition to Remove ‘Under God’ from Pledge of Allegiance
▪ White House on Rubashkin petition: Why We Can’t Comment
▪ The Origins of Jewish Creativity
▪ SALT Monday
▪ Last week’s news & links
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IH-one begrudingly tokenist page in a Chicago survey and the complete failure to even discuss the very strong Baltimore Charedi and MO communities speaks volumes as to the methodology and conclusions reached by demographers.
armenian spitting — there are security video cameras all over the (so called) old city. just look at them (and / or install new ones in appropriate locations)
as i commented oreviously — is it against the law to spit at an (appropriately dressed / identified) rav? if we want to go on about this, this must be clarified.
also, are arabs also spitting? (or do the armenians prefer not to get into that, as all the various christian churches do not want to protest against those they are fearful of (greek orthodox, excepted; they are known as notorious supporters.)
london busses — i heard (tv news reports) that nyc bus drivers have same issues in “minority” neighborhoods.
Steve — you’re right. Orthodoxy really accounts for 20% of Jews in the US only 10% – 15% hang up on the survey agents or do not identify themselves as Orthodox thereby skewing the statistics :-)
“His plausible audience as a proportion of the orthodox demographic is quite simply smaller here than it is in the US.”
Really-except for Lubavitch which has a liking to the CR for obvious parochial reasons what proportion of the Chassidic and Hareidi audience does he have in the US
“the complete failure to even discuss the very strong Baltimore Charedi and MO communities speaks volumes as to the methodology and conclusions reached by demographers.”
Baltimore is atypical of the US-it has probably been the most Orthodox city in the US since Rabbi Rice in the mid 1800s-they were the first city outside of NY to have Jewish day HS TA (circa 1919).
Approximate percentage of Jews in the US in Baltimore 2%
Number of Jews by city
New York-1.9 mil, LA-625,000, Phily-276,000, Chicago-261,000, Boston-227,000, Washington-165,000, Baltimore-95,000, Detriot-94,000
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Jewish_population_by_US_city#ixzz1clnDqqXl
leaves out the approximate 500k from South Florida-the Dade/Broward/Palm Beach megalopolis does not fit easily into cities.
“Steve Brizel on November 4, 2011 at 3:36 pm
IH-one begrudingly tokenist page in a Chicago survey and the complete failure to even discuss the very strong Baltimore Charedi and MO communities speaks volumes as to the methodology and conclusions reached by demographers”
There are some well known Orthodox demographers/sociologists etc-are you aware of any who have written statingthat the methodology and demographers have intentionally undercounted the number ofOrthodox Jews in the US? If you aware of any please post a link to their writings.
Apropos Freund’s article, I recently translated a biting critique by R. Dr. Yehuda Brandes on the subject of gemara education in high school, available here in pdf form:
http://aiwac.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/how-not-to-teach-gemara-in-high-school-pdf-version/
Enjoy, or cringe.
Didn’t Atid publish a debate between R. Brandes and R. Aharon Lichtenstein on this subject? I recall finding R. Lichtenstein more convincing.
“What MO needs is someone who combines both of those skills with a charismatic personality”
Since the Rav who has had both skills?
Yes, they did.
R. Lichtenstein, while passionate, only convinces me w/regard to savants (which, quite frankly, is all most yeshivot really care about at the end of the day). His method is not relevant for normal folk, certainly not in the beginning, in a rigid school setting.
His insistence on “Brisk, Brisk and only Brisk” rubs me the wrong way. You’d think that all the previous generations ONLY learned according to R. Haim’s method the way he waxes eloquent about it.
PS Have you gotten to the section about the CI’s (far from positive) attitude towards Brisk? I found it fascinating.
“Hirhurim on November 5, 2011 at 7:25 pm
Didn’t Atid publish a debate between R. Brandes and R. Aharon Lichtenstein on this subject? I recall finding R. Lichtenstein more convincing”
The question should be one that has an empirical answer-which on first impression may well be different in Israel and the Diaspora.
“/regard to savants (which, quite frankly, is all most yeshivot really care about at the end of the day”
AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve Brizel on November 4, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Mycroft wrote:
“Not an expert but my impression is that rarely in our history were poskim the leaders of our communities”
How about the Noda BiYehudah, Chasam Sofer and the Gra for three examples of Poskim who were leaders of their communities?
_______________
STEVE:
so you named 2 (the gra wasn’t as gil pointed out). even if you name more, this doesn’t refute what mycroft wrote. he didn’t say they didn’t exist. just that they were rare. of course to an extent this hinges on how one defines “community” and “posek”
“what do you call almost every day school / yeshiva? i call it a business, incorporated as a non profit, with a (possible) altruistic purpose. who’se profits accrue to the “principal” of the business, known as RY or admnistrator. some exceptions, but few and far between.”
Not all the day schools I know. There are no “profits [to] accrue” and those who are the administrators receive a salary.
Abba- “of course to an extent this hinges on how one defines “community” and “posek””
Please could someone define a leader – and whether that has changed over time?
“His method is not relevant for normal folk, certainly not in the beginning, ”
A Yeshiva method is not relevant for the majority of the population.
“Not an expert but my impression is that rarely in our history were poskim the leaders of our communities”
BTW-the Gra is an example of where a world class talmid chacham was not the leader of the Vilna community-his cherem against Hassidus I believe was signed by the leaders of the community.
“Joseph Kaplan on November 5, 2011 at 8:25 pm
“what do you call almost every day school / yeshiva? i call it a business, incorporated as a non profit, with a (possible) altruistic purpose. who’se profits accrue to the “principal” of the business, known as RY or admnistrator. some exceptions, but few and far between.”
Not all the day schools I know. There are no “profits [to] accrue” and those who are the administrators receive a salary.”
Profits in nonprofits general is a tricky business-closely held ones make sure to pay out in salaries etc enough to not “make money”
For a day school-lets take a conservative example
20 students in a class-usually more
20000 tuition far from the highest
400000 revenue-not including dinners etc
Assume Rebbe costs 150K-on the high side
leaves 250K for other expenses-secular teachers moonlighting will go for less than 10k a period-thus will average less than 50k for the secular studies-leaving 200k for other amortized expenses-building depreciation, heat, administrator salaries etc
Don’t like my figures/assumptions- do a proforma with your figures/assumptions and see what you come up with.
“Ruvie on November 5, 2011 at 8:47 pm
Abba- “of course to an extent this hinges on how one defines “community” and “posek”””
I define community as Jews who lived in a geographic area-obviously if one defines community as those who accept X or Y as Gadol Hador/Posek Hador the answer might change for them- if onecould have had a Gallup Poll back then and asked aJews who you’re leaders are.
Obviously-we tend to know years later about the talmeidei chachamim rather than the leaders ofthe communities.
There may be some newer books but IMHO it is worth the time and effort to read Salo Baron’s “A Social and Religious History of the Jews” to understand Jewish History is more than just a study of our poskim and rabbonim.
Mycroft – “Obviously-we tend to know years later about the talmeidei chachamim rather than the leaders ofthe communities.”
True, leaders generally do not write shu”t or other sefarim if they are not rabbis. I am just surprised that leaders in general here are regarded to be only rabbis. Why in general one would think that a ry or a posek is a leader of a community without communal roles is strange by indicative to how the layity think these days. But, it would be true of Hasidic communities where the rebbe is the leader.
Ex-Mossad Chief warns…. ‘Ultra-Orthodox radicalization poses bigger threat than Ahmadinejad,’
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4143909,00.html
Ousted Jerusalem city council member Rachel Azaria worries that Israel is giving too much ground to religious extremists.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-s-happened-to-this-model-state-1.393938
Is this extremism showing up in the USA with signs asking them to walk on the other side of the street or move over for men? Time will tell. Will the people of israel at some point not cave into haredei demands?
not likely soon but at some point expect to see a major backlash.
Mycroft:
I have no idea what the correct figures are. What I do have an idea about are the people who are involved (teachers, administrators, board members) in the day schools that I am familiar with. And I know know that to say, as MMHY said, that the (alleged) “profits accrue” to the administrators of the schools is an unjustified, anonymous attack on many many people who who devote themselves to the cause of Jewish education.
With regard to Freund’s article, my doctoral research focused on this exact issue in an American context. While limited in scope, it offered some degree of hope.
Click here for the study: http://lookstein.org/articles/motivational_issues.pdf
“Menachem Z. Rosensaft, the child of Holocaust survivors, teaches a class on the law of genocide at Columbia Law School.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/05/nyregion/for-this-instructor-teaching-about-genocide-is-personal.html
His Wikipedia entry is interesting, btw.
“Rabbi Rice in the mid 1800s-they were the first city outside of NY to have Jewish day HS TA (circa 1919).”
Actually, Rabbi Rice himself had started a day school in the mid-19th century. That still made Baltimore #2, behind New York, as Gershom Mendes Seixas and Israel Bear Kursheedt had started one decades earlier. None of these attempts lasted, though.
“Organ Gangs Force Poor to Sell Kidneys for Desperate Israelis”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-01/organ-gangs-force-poor-to-sell-kidneys-for-desperate-israelis.html
“The proposal was initiated by Knesset Members Zevulun Orlev (Habayit Hayehudi) and Otniel Schneller (Kadima) will obligate the rabbinical court to set a date for granting a Get.”
Problem with establishment of Religion in Israel-once one has batei dinim set up-a secular government and theoretically based on decisions of non Jews can force a beis din to do x or y
Charlie Hall on November 6, 2011 at 12:19 am
““Rabbi Rice in the mid 1800s-they were the first city outside of NY to have Jewish day HS TA (circa 1919).”
Actually, Rabbi Rice himself had started a day school in the mid-19th century. That still made Baltimore #2, behind New York, as Gershom Mendes Seixas and Israel Bear Kursheedt had started one decades earlier. None of these attempts lasted, though”
Are you maintaininig that there were Day HS in the US before MTA-if I recall correctly R Rakeffet in his book about Revel maintains that Revel startedthe first HS with both Jewish and secualr studies in theUS around 1915 or so when MTA was founded- Is my recollection wrong?
Joseph Kaplan-
I am not challenging any individuals good faith in the day school movement-I just posted a back of the envelope revenue and expenses for 1 case using my assumptions-I invite others to come up with different proformas using different assumptions.
Ruvie on November 5, 2011 at 11:10 pm
Mycroft – “Obviously-we tend to know years later about the talmeidei chachamim rather than the leaders ofthe communities.”
“True, leaders generally do not write shu”t or other sefarim if they are not rabbis. I am just surprised that leaders in general here are regarded to be only rabbis.”
Iam not sure that is correct-there are certainly bloggers who believe that not sure how many.
“Why in general one would think that a ry or a posek is a leader of a community without communal roles is strange by indicative to how the layity think these days.”
Most Jewish laity don’t think that way
“But, it would be true of Hasidic communities where the rebbe is the leader”
Agreed but Hasidism is less than 300 years old-Judaism is over 3000 years old.
“YU sponsors Torah that females are not allowed to attend. Do you support entirely co-ed events”
Outside of davening in a schul-WHY NOT?
mycroft – “Most Jewish laity don’t think that way” i meant frum laity in general.
My original comment was not to you. My second comment (to you, this time) was simply pointing out that I didn’t think your response was particularly relevant to the point I was making.
interesting read and think of application to the Jewish world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/opinion/sunday/douthat-our-reckless-meritocracy.html?_r=1
“ruvie on November 6, 2011 at 7:37 am
mycroft – “Most Jewish laity don’t think that way” i meant frum laity in general.
”
fair enough but its an open question does frum laity believe that way -or is there sometimes a figleaf of putting Rabbinic names as decison makers-see Agudah-for many years Rabbi Sherer ran the Agudah-his smicha is irrelevant no one wouldclaim that his power was based on his being a talmid chacham but he effectively used the Moetzet Gdolei Hatorah as a cover for his succesful running of the organization.
But the question of is the Agudah a Rabbibic led organization or lay goes back to its founding maybe some scholar can opine on Breuer vs Rosenheim.
Fascinating read: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women–islam-the-rise-and-rise-of-the-convert-6258015.html
,” required that he think & communicate in real-time to unexpected turns in conversation. To me, this is far more interesting and thought-provoking.”
Agreed
no comments on chareidi spitting attacks against non Chareidi clergy?
” I am just surprised that leaders in general here are regarded to be only rabbis.”
Was that true historically? Or is it that most of the bloggers here have gone through a Yeshiva education which means studying in depth the Rabbinic past of our heritage.
“November 5, 2011 at 11:39 pm
With regard to Freund’s article, my doctoral research focused on this exact issue in an American context. While limited in scope, it offered some degree of hope.
Click here for the study: http://lookstein.org/articles/motivational_issues.pdf”
thanks for the link-interesting study-I posted a fragment of your abstract-as my Readers digest for those who don’t have the time to read all of it.
The most significant finds of these analyses was that student motivation to study Talmud seems to be most closely linked to his motivation to succeed in school in general,while the impact of parents, peers, and teachers on motivation was significant only with regard to the relationships that students reported having with their rebbeim. When asked to rank their classes, one-third of the students placed Talmud in the lower one-third of
their classes, but almost one-half ranked Talmud in the top one-third of their classes, with one-third ranking it first among their subjects. Analyses of variance were performed to
better explain the relationship between the rankings and the actual motivation that students had towards Talmud. In general, student motivation correlated well with the ranking that students gave their Talmud class. The one surprising finding was that many
students who ranked Talmud lower among their subjects still reported a positive relationship with their rebbe. These findings bring some focus to the question of what schools are attempting to accomplish by allotting over two hours of instructional time per
day to the study of Talmud, and the suggestion is made that it is not the study of Talmud itself which is most important, but rather the increased exposure to the positive religious
role model of the rebbe.
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“Not all the day schools I know. There are no “profits [to] accrue” and those who are the administrators receive a salary.”"
just like the pres of goldman sachs walks out of the room during a board meeting and a board member quickly proposes $Xmill salary to him this year (with no debate.) ditto day school “administrator”.
(yeah — goldman sachs has a compensation committe, etc. i’m just trhowing out a hypothetical comparison with day schools.)
actually, nothing wrong with it, in my opinion. administrator salary is a function of fundraising (which i notice many day schools do not do anymore) and market forces (go to work for the day school next door, which is similarly managed.)
the day school admninistrator couldnt do a steve jobs or bill gates (no / little salary, and stock compensation.)
thank you mycroft for the back of the envelope support.
Joseph Kaplan on November 6, 2011 at 7:50 am
My original comment was not to you. My second comment (to you, this time) was simply pointing out that I didn’t think your response was particularly relevant to the point I was making
Thanks for the clarification
” i’m just trhowing out a hypothetical comparison with day schools.”
Your alleged “comparison” is a vile slur on many fine people. You have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to many yeshivot and day schools. But hiding behind a pseudonym you feel free to malign anyone — as you continually do. And Mycroft’s analysis, correct or not (I’m not competent to judge — and I suspect you’re not either) doesn’t support your odious attacks.
“meant frum laity in general.”
Curious what is your operational definition of frum.