134 Responses to News & Links

1. Skeptic on August 31, 2011 at 9:33 am

   “Conservative Synagogues Crack Open Door to Intermarried Families”

   It’s already wide open at Chabad Houses. A number of the most regular minyan goers at the Chabad shuls nearest me are intermarried and welcomed with open arms, given aliyas, allowed to daven from the amud, etc. So the Conservatives are just following their lead.
2. Shachar Ha'amim on August 31, 2011 at 11:08 am

   I don’t know why the ACJ view of Zionism is always portrayed as a reform view. There are certainly many charedim and even some modern orthodox who hold views regarding Zionism, Israel and/or a Jewish State that are similar to those of the ACJ. From a practical perspective there really isn’t much of a difference between abandoning belief in a messiah or declaring that the messiah will come at some time in the future on a white donkey accompanied by the temple descending out of the sky, all while supporting the view that Jews are members of the mosaic religion while citizens of X or Y state.
3. Joseph Kaplan on August 31, 2011 at 12:13 pm

   As a lifelong member of the MO community, I’ve met many many MO Jews over my life and can’t think of one who holds views about Zionism or Israel similar to those of the ACJ. Maybe there are some who I will meet someday but it hasn’t happened yet.
4. chardal on August 31, 2011 at 1:11 pm

   >As a lifelong member of the MO community, I’ve met many many MO Jews over my life and can’t think of one who holds views about Zionism or Israel similar to those of the ACJ. Maybe there are some who I will meet someday but it hasn’t happened yet.

   They are a rare bread now at days, but you may still be able to find a TIDE austritt-lovin Yekke here and there who can be described as both MO and antizionist.
5. Anonymous on August 31, 2011 at 1:38 pm

   Chardal,

   I think that’s the point: the definition of MO has changed since pre-War Germany, and being anti-Zionist may very well preclude someone from being MO today.
6. Nachum on August 31, 2011 at 4:51 pm

   Joseph: I’ve seen it. You can find it in some postings on Morethodoxy, for example, and other rabbis of that ilk. (Lopatin, for example, once put up a post calling for the end of the State of Israel.) I met one at the Kotel who casually mentioned that he wasn’t a Zionist. (YU rabbi, “out of town” kehilla, young.) I doubt he had any idea what he was saying, but they’re out there.
7. aiwac on August 31, 2011 at 5:05 pm

   Nachum,

   I’m searching through the blog, and Rabbi Lopatin seems to be quite the enthusiastic Israel supporter…
8. aiwac on August 31, 2011 at 5:10 pm

   OK, never mind, I found the post. Canaanite much, Rabbi Lopatin?
9. Joseph Kaplan on August 31, 2011 at 6:52 pm

   I’ve found a number of contradictory posts by R. Lopatin. Here’s one, from 2009, that couldn’t possibly be more different from the ACJ. http://www.jewishjournal.com/morethodoxy/item/rabbi_asher_lopatins_political_positions_on_israel_20091218/ So when I meet R. Lopatin (if I ever do), I’ll have to ask him.
10. lawrence kaplan on August 31, 2011 at 9:03 pm

    I must be missing something, but I can’t find the anti-Zionist post of R. Lopatin.
11. aiwac on August 31, 2011 at 9:08 pm

    Prof. Kaplan,

    He’s not anti-zionist per se, he’s a right wing one-stater (though there isn’t much practical difference). See here for the details:

    http://morethodoxy.org/2009/06/15/what-netanyahu-should-have-proposed-by-rabbi-asher-lopatin/
12. aiwac on August 31, 2011 at 9:10 pm

    BTW, I find it interesting that R. Lopatin essentially takes the side of the hard secular side of the 1958 “Who is a Jew” debate – namely, that people need merely declare that they are Jewish to be considered such by the state of Israel.
13. Nachum on September 1, 2011 at 1:42 am

    There was a much more recent posting along the same lines. He even had the chutzpa to claim the mantle of Jabotinsky in doing so, and pledged to move his kehillah to Israel- the Negev, of course, chas v’shalom someplace “disputed.” I don’t think it panned out.
14. Shachar Ha'amim on September 1, 2011 at 5:01 am

    I don’t think you can fault him for claiming the mantle of Jabotinsky. Actaully many of the Caananites of the 1950′s came out of the Revisionist movement and they were all Jabotisnkiites.
    Though I don’t think that their vision of a “one-state” was the same as what Lopatin and other one-staters argue for – which is much closer to the Brit Shalom one-state vision than the Caanananite view
15. aiwac on September 1, 2011 at 5:35 am

    I also think he misunderstood the historical context – Jabotinsky frequently spoke of a mass aliya of millions of Jews to the land of Israel from pre-Holocaust Europe, thus ensuring an overwhelming Jewish majority. For obvious reasons, that is not a realistic option today – the USSR reservoir is already depleted and there is no mass aliyah from the US on the horizon at least until doomsday. Declaring “one-state” now, even assuming the Palestinians never cross 50%, would still mean a paralyzed, horribly disfunctional bi-national state a la Lebanon in the bad old days.

    As for Rabbi Lopatin’s plan to invite millions of people from Africa and Asia to simply “declare” themselves Jewish to ensure a majority…the less said about such an insane plan, the better.
16. Nachum on September 1, 2011 at 5:52 am

    Actually, now that you mention it: Some of the most prominent liberal-minded Orthodox figures out there can be horribly regressive in their personal views. I’ve known some prominent Orthodox Democrats (or even just plain liberal Democrats) who, in private, express terribly racist views. (This is not a dig at them- I’m sure this crosses political lines, but they’re who I’m discussing. And I’m not sure the two *don’t* have anything to do with each other.)

    Similarly, I’ve heard people with very left-wing views vis a vis the Israel/Arab issue express, privately, very racist attitudes toward Arabs (again, perhaps these are connected) and, on the other hand (and I do mean that) “solutions” that come pretty close to Kahanism. The disconnect is such that they sometimes try to reconcile these in their public statements. The result is a messy hodgepodge.

    I’m not sure that this wasn’t true of some of the Jabotinskyites as well.
17. Shachar Ha'amim on September 1, 2011 at 6:10 am

    “>As a lifelong member of the MO community, I’ve met many many MO Jews over my life and can’t think of one who holds views about Zionism or Israel similar to those of the ACJ. Maybe there are some who I will meet someday but it hasn’t happened yet.

    They are a rare bread now at days, but you may still be able to find a TIDE austritt-lovin Yekke here and there who can be described as both MO and antizionist.”

    That as well as MO Jews who just perceive themselves as Americans and do not see Israel as important or relevant. Certain types of people who work in service of the American government or write for news publications.
    Even if the shul they daven in says tefilla leshlom hamedinah or has an Israel flag, they are not Zionist. The Israeli flag is to them the same thing that the references to korbanot in tefilla are to Jews who don’t believe there will ever again be such a thing.
18. Joseph Kaplan on September 1, 2011 at 7:13 am

    ” That as well as MO Jews who just perceive themselves as Americans and do not see Israel as important or relevant.”

    Even when you change the issue from agreeing with the ACJ to this narrower issue, I think that the vast majority of American MO do not fit into this category. Just my personal perception.
19. Shachar Ha'amim on September 1, 2011 at 7:33 am

    Joseph – even if it is the vast majority – which it probably is – that doesn’t mean you can necessarily equate MO with Zionism or suggest that Zionism is an a priori requirement for the definition of MO – as R. Yitzchak Blau once tried to suggest. It is not – and the fact that there are anti-zionist and non-zionist MO jews and thinkers proves this.
20. Elli F on September 1, 2011 at 7:54 am

    Joel and Rafael – go to the website of ANY electric company and read their tips about how to act in case of a downed wire.
21. joel rich on September 1, 2011 at 8:52 am

    R’ Elli,
    As I’m told a cwerain rav said about a certain sefer, I don’t need to look it up there, I had a father :-)
    KT
22. joel rich on September 1, 2011 at 8:57 am

    9/11 story imho is a good example of what R’YBS called the Manhattan project approach to halacha (extreme focus to a particularly needed end result). Too bad we so rarely agree on the need.
    KT
23. joel rich on September 1, 2011 at 9:09 am

    interesting-what % of people give at least 25% of their total charitable giving to local schools? How does this comport with other needs?
    KT
24. aiwac on September 1, 2011 at 9:32 am

    Interesting article with Rabbi Wolpe. Does anyone agree with this assessment:

    “As the intellectual pressures of Western society increase, I am hoping you will see a gradual defection from fundamentalism and that – unbeknownst to all these yeshivot – they are training the next generations of Conservative Jews. It has happened before and it may happen again.”
25. aiwac on September 1, 2011 at 9:35 am

    On a related note, I remember Haaretz reporter Shachar Ilan saying that RZers raise the most value-driven secularists:

    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/958/903.html
26. J. on September 1, 2011 at 9:54 am

    I don’t think Wolpe is right – one of the most interesting trends of the last 40 or so years has been the ability of groups which do not engage intellectually with modernity to retain their youth and grow demographically whilst keeping the outside world at bay. In a post ideological world it is likely to be only a distinct minority who are induced to leave for intellectual reasons, however strong the academic consensus may be in favour of a given hypothesis that contradicts that group’s narrative. If anything, it will be economic pressures or a reaction to what the youth may perceive to be an overly restrictive lifestyle that will lead to change, possibly compounded by a crisis of leadership.
27. joel rich on September 1, 2011 at 9:56 am

    I’m still chewing on “extrapolating from current trends is as fooloish in religion as it is in economics” certainly a pithy style, and of course it is true that straight line extrapolation (everything will remain the same) is just about always wrong (see orthodoxy, demise thereof predicted circa 1950). What is lacking is an analysis of the circumstances (and likelihood) that will cause the change (e.g. poverty?)
    KT
28. J. on September 1, 2011 at 10:04 am

    Also, one must remember, that as opposed to many strands of Xtianity, charedi Judaism has an entire alternative ‘intellectual universe’ that exists on a separate plane to crude clashes with the scientific consensus such as Xtian creationism, e.g. theoretical ‘lomdishe’ constructs. This is far less likely to be damaged by the ‘pressures of Western civilization’ as it largely escapes engagement with it.
29. emma on September 1, 2011 at 10:12 am

    ““Yitzik,” a 25-year-old father of two, said that for him and others in the neighborhood, “the presence of the boys school was never a problem, but then, they try to sneak in the girls’ school.

    It’s not just the extremists among us that are against this, all of us are.”

    Yitzik added, “We are raising our children here and they can’t be exposed to these sorts of immodest sights,” in reference to the style of dress favored by national-religious school girls and their mothers.”

    :(
30. Anonymous on September 1, 2011 at 11:13 am

    “The university is firmly opposed”

    How can a university speak in one voice? How can anyone presume to?

    Yup, totalitarianism is alive and well and healthiest on the Left, as it has been for about a hundred years.
31. Rafael Araujo on September 1, 2011 at 11:14 am

    Yitzik speaks only for himself. But please, go ahead and extrapolate to the entire RBS Charedi population.

    How do we know this guy isn’t one of the crazies?
32. Rafael Araujo on September 1, 2011 at 11:16 am

    “On a related note, I remember Haaretz reporter Shachar Ilan saying that RZers raise the most value-driven secularists”

    DL have a higher attrition rate than Chareidim in EY. Therefore, they are producing more seculars with solid values.
33. joel rich on September 1, 2011 at 11:24 am

    R’RA,
    Not doubting your statement but are there surveys of such (and I often wonder do we get the “hollow attrition” – that is folks who remain sociologically in their original camp but are mentally checked out)
    KT
34. Jon_Brooklyn on September 1, 2011 at 11:59 am

    Dr. Shoshan, here’s what I don’t get: most of your side is relatively physically healthy, have served in the army, and own weapons. The opposite is true of your enemies. Why aren’t you just fighting back?
35. emma on September 1, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    I don’t trust yitzi that “it’s not just the extremists.” But I do trust him (because many other signs point in this direction too) that it’s largely driven by the presence of (gasp) non-haredi females. That’s what makes me :(
36. Tal Benschar on September 1, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    ““Yitzik,” a 25-year-old father of two, said that for him and others in the neighborhood, “the presence of the boys school was never a problem, but then, they try to sneak in the girls’ school.

    It’s not just the extremists among us that are against this, all of us are.”

    Yitzik added, “We are raising our children here and they can’t be exposed to these sorts of immodest sights,” in reference to the style of dress favored by national-religious school girls and their mothers.”

    Is the term “extremists” a matter of the opinions people hold, or the tactics they use? To put it differently, if someone is opposed to the school, but is also opposed to violent tactics, is he (or she) an “extremist?”
37. aiwac on September 1, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    “Not doubting your statement but are there surveys of such (and I often wonder do we get the “hollow attrition” – that is folks who remain sociologically in their original camp but are mentally checked out)”

    Joel,

    To play devil’s advocate – from the Charedi POV they’re a partial victory – since they’ll send their children to Charedi schools, so the next generation is “safe”. Not so w/OTD RZers.
38. aiwac on September 1, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    Tal,

    It depends on whether they give passive moral support or a sympathetic public to such people. If yes, then they are to be counted among them.
39. J. on September 1, 2011 at 1:03 pm

    Tal – Very much so. Anyone who is opposed to a frum school for little girls in a neighborhood which is not even theirs is an extremist. I’d like to see these loons pull a similar stunt over a Williamsburg public school. These good for nothing layabouts would be wise to avoid continuing to bite the hands of the Israeli taxpayers who feed and protect them.
40. Guest on September 1, 2011 at 1:19 pm

    A call to rehabilitate haredi education
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=236228
41. Shlomo on September 1, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    DL have a higher attrition rate than Chareidim in EY. Therefore, they are producing more seculars with solid values.

    More likely, the charedim are also producing secular people, but without solid values. Charedi ideology says there are are no values, only arbitrary Divine commands. Take away the commandedness and you get people with no moral sense whatsoever. Many of them develop some kind of values on their own, but they have no help from their past community in that regard.
42. Moshe Shoshan on September 1, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    Jon

    As it turns out the DL community here made up heavily of anglo olim. The percentage veterans of combat units or gun owners is fairly small.

    More importantly, we have been raised to follow the law, settle our differences by “using our words” and to love all jews and never ever to throw feces at people.

    This puts us at distinct disadvantage here. But I’d like to think that in the long run we ae better off for these traits.

    That being said, if any one out there knows how to find the A-Team I would like to hear from them…
43. avi on September 1, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    Re article about Haredi journalists… I could have sworn I read that exact article a few months ago… Yup in July.. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/06/reporters-change-an-insul_n_891146.html Also pretty sure I read the article from this blog :)

    Re Autopsy: I don’t get how an MRI is able to be a replacement for chemical or toxin tests that might need to be done.

    Re Haifa: I know some of the people involved with setting up that ‘discussion’ and they feel betrayed by the their colleagues.
44. Rafael Araujo on September 1, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    “More likely, the charedim are also producing secular people, but without solid values. Charedi ideology says there are are no values, only arbitrary Divine commands. Take away the commandedness and you get people with no moral sense whatsoever. Many of them develop some kind of values on their own, but they have no help from their past community in that regard.”

    Sorry. My point wasn’t that. My point was that DL has more adherents going off the derech than Chareidim.
45. aiwac on September 1, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    Rafael,

    Sociologically, maybe. Religiously? I doubt it.
46. c y on September 1, 2011 at 9:59 pm

    According to a study on Israelis who described themselves as secular,20% said they came from a religious background while only 1% said they were orginally charedi
47. c y on September 1, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    Probably many of the old timers fall in the former category.
48. Jon_brooklyn on September 1, 2011 at 11:53 pm

    Dr. Shoshan: good point. I forgot that most of RBS is olim. I would expect the same response in Teaneck.
49. mycroft on September 2, 2011 at 8:32 am

    “DL have a higher attrition rate than Chareidim in EY.”
    How does the folllowing follow from the previous sentence?

    “Therefore, they are producing more seculars with solid values.”
50. yehupitz on September 2, 2011 at 9:09 am

    The RBS nonsense makes me sick to the stomach. I thought that governments are instituted among men to protect rights… Where are the water-cannons?!

    I get so bored every year when the anti-Uman poskim come out of the woodwork. Those who issue these rulings do not get the Breslev cultural context and will therefore be ignored by anyone who DOES care about Uman. Those who go to Uman view the anti-Uman psak the way a sefardi views an Ashkenazi poseik telling them how to pronounce an Ayin. Move on…